A transcript and clip from my recent conversation with former Head of Royal Protection David Seaborn Davies (Dai Davies) about what the secret services would have known about the Andrew and Epstein scandal, the destruction of evidence and what his protection officers would have seen.
Andrew Lownie
Is there a national security scandal here as well? The fact that we’re talking about Epstein being a Russian source, the Chinese spies around Andrew, talk about breaking the Official Secrets Act. Is that something people should be looking at?
Dai Davies
Well, yes. I said, I think in one interview, what’s the point of a Secret Service if they can’t investigate and then come to a conclusion? Who in the Secret Service has kept this quiet for so long? Why have they countenanced this? They must have known.
Andrew Lownie
But surely the Secret Service did investigate it and complained, and they were ignored. The problem was Mandelson — they did warn about Mandelson’s connections, and the problem is they were overruled. And now they can leak stories because of this.
Dai Davies
Well, you recall how the then head of MI5 refused to investigate him, and he was ordered to do so by the then Prime Minister, I think, and those in power. So what I’m saying is there is precedent where the head of the Secret Service has been ordered to give information, and it was the case with Edward VIII.
So there are some similarities between Andrew’s behaviour as far as I know. And from my lecture on Edward VIII in the same year — an excellent book was brought out — but I know it quite well, and I see huge similarities in corruption, in the money laundering when he was in the Bahamas. So yes, there’s so much. Perhaps there’s something in their DNA which makes them greedy, I don’t know.
Andrew Lownie
Is there a problem that some of these people have signed NDAs? Some of the victims have basically been paid, got compensation — could they give evidence, or are they stuck with the old NDAs or with the fact that they’ve settled court cases?
Dai Davies
No NDA covers you to be corrupt. No NDA says that if the law is being broken you have to keep quiet. So I don’t buy that.
Andrew Lownie
But people get scared. And I suppose how to get that message across to people — to the police, when they interview these people they can make that case. But certainly my experience when I interviewed people, I made that point to them. They’re still utterly terrified of something. I don’t quite know what — members of the York staff — but they think people would come after them and use the law or whatever.
Dai Davies
Well, being ethical is knowing what is right and then doing what is right, and having the courage to do what is right, as far as I’m concerned. So perhaps some of them need to develop a backbone.
Andrew Lownie
Yeah. And if you were, where do you think — who are the people you think should all be cooperating with the police apart from Andrew, Sarah Ferguson, the two daughters, Amanda Thirsk, the accountants, the former ambassadors, the heads of UKTI — who else would be on your list that you would go after?
Dai Davies
The protection officers, I have to say, and the five or six that accompany him, one of them to carry a zoning board as I understand, the people who travelled with him, the people who should have done due diligence on Epstein, on Epstein’s goings-on. Why on earth? Every time a royal goes anywhere in the world there is a meeting to discuss the issues, the priorities, the safety.
I just simply can’t believe that at no stage in 2000 and whenever — 2010, when he was appointed to whatever it was — earlier than that, clearly nobody seemed to have done any due diligence on Epstein, and this was allowed to continue from 2000 all the way to when he stopped being a trade envoy.
Andrew Lownie
It does seem extraordinary what’s happening. You talk about the possible end of the monarchy — how do you see that playing out? And it’s clearly raising all sorts of other questions about our political system, the fact that Mandelson is going to remain a lord, for example.
Dai Davies
Andrew remains eighth in line to the throne. There’s a similarity, if you like. Now, you’ve often said you’re a royalist. I’m a realist and I can’t think of any political system that would replace it. But there’s a duty, surely, on the royals to be transparent, impeccable in their behaviour. I know they’re human like the rest of us, but what we’re seeing is a whole range of issues.
Cash in bags for favours, lordships being offered, and we countenance this. And yet there’s been no internal inquiry, as far as I’m concerned, into the Palace. The last internal one was after the Burrell affair, when Prince Charles, as he was then, their private secretary — which was a complete nonsense, a complete washout as far as I was concerned, where the truth wasn’t established.
Andrew Lownie
And presumably there’s a big paper trail. Presumably protection officers have to write reports on what they’ve seen, what they’ve done. If there were reports of bad behaviour that would move up the chain of command.
Dai Davies
Well, you’d think it would. Those are huge questions to ask of all manner of people. The question is this pyramid. You start at the very top. And unfortunately that top can’t actually be cross-examined. You go to the next one down and you then work your way down. But if you’re gathering evidence you’ve got to investigate, you’ve got to examine, you’ve got to gather the paper trail.
And I always say, if you’re following corruption, follow the money trail. So clearly, if I was looking at it, if I was selected to command a unit, I would look at the money trail — all those concerned.
Andrew Lownie
And do you think that there may have been evidence destroyed, for example?
Dai Davies
Oh, without a doubt. But they usually go with the flow of records gone, records disappeared. Well then follow the records. Who would have got access? Who ordered it?
Andrew Lownie
Yes. Well that is to say that you keep asking more and more questions, because certainly my experience asking for the police logs was that national security meant they couldn’t be released. And then they said they’d been destroyed. But is that likely? Police logs of only a few years ago would be destroyed?
Dai Davies
I would have thought a few years ago — if you go back, as you and I know, to the 30s when you’ve asked for detail, then possibly things could go into archives. And clearly, as with Fagan breaking into the Queen’s bedroom, there was an official report into that carried out by Sir John Dillon.
So these things are kept because if you don’t learn the lessons of history, as you well know, you won’t learn how you should deal with anything coming at you. And what we appear to have in this country is we’ve forgotten the lessons of history, and we’re certainly not translating them into the actions of today and tomorrow.
Andrew Lownie
What strikes me also is the very poor security, the fact that women were being brought into Buckingham Palace and people didn’t know who they were. Does that surprise you? Did that happen when you were there and you tried to stamp down on it? How could that possibly happen when you talk about Fagan getting in? But here were prostitutes being brought in and no one knowing who they were.
Dai Davies
Well, that’s the trouble. You see, the police quite often were encumbered by — if Andrew says, “I’ve got guests coming, they’re my guests,” you can’t challenge them. It was done. And there have been incidents over the years where that’s been notified. And again, with Prince William’s 21st at Windsor, if you recall, the strange fellow got in and kissed him on the cheeks because they were then His Majesty’s guests.
So there is almost, well, you the peasants guarding this place won’t ask too many questions, and that was a flaw and probably still remains. When you go to a garden party you’ve got an official invitation, but anybody could get that if they wanted to.
Andrew Lownie
And what reforms do you think should take place? What are the lessons that we’ve learned from this episode? You’re talking about more transparency, that the Royal Family needs to set an example, but what are the stages that should happen after this, assuming that maybe he does get charged?
Dai Davies
Well, that is a good question. It really is difficult to understand who’s going to get a grip of this. And there seem to me to be so many different investigations going on that whoever’s going to coordinate it — it’s difficult to name that individual unless you appoint a judge. But again, they come in different shapes and sizes. So who on earth do you trust these days?
